Oil and Water: Young Migrant Women and the Promises of Liberal Feminism
This interview was produced for the upcoming anthology, Spinning and Weaving: Contemporary Radical Feminist Theory, edited by Elizabeth Miller and published by Tidal Time Publishing.
Profiles
Interviewed by
Bec Wonders
Bec is a 27-year-old feminist scholar. She was born in Sweden to Dutch and Canadian parents and grew up in Germany. Bec co-founded the Vancouver Women’s Library in 2017 while pursuing a Masters in Publishing. She also founded the Frauenkultur Archive: an online repository of second-wave feminist book titles. Bec is currently completing her Ph.D. at the Glasgow School of Art in the history of feminist publishing during the Women’s Liberation Movement.
In conversation with
Yağmur Uygarkızı
Yağmur is a 24-year-old feminist who was born in Turkey, grew up in Italy and France, and studied in the UK. She is interested in male violence or discriminatory practices against women that are not commonly perceived as such, specifically prostitution-pornography and veiling. She has translated, written, and spoken on those issues and she’s always more than happy to sneak into random people’s casual conversations about those practices if she senses nonsense. She is the co-creatress of Radical Girlsss, the young women’s movement of the European Network of Migrant Women.
Adriana Thiago
Adriana is a 27-year-old Portuguese-Brazilian feminist and graduated in International Relations. Born in Luxembourg to Portuguese and Brazilian parents, she currently lives in Belgium. She studied in Madrid and has lived in Rio de Janeiro to reconnect to her culture of origin. Adriana has worked both as an activist in civil society associations and governmental organizations within the migration sector in Europe and Latin America. She now works for the European Network of Migrant Women and is a co-convenor of its young women's movement, Radical Girlsss, where she strives for a global radical feminist perspective and the end of sexual exploitation.
Natasha Noreen
Natasha is a 26-year-old feminist and activist advocating for migrant and women’s rights in Italy and Pakistan. She is a member of the European Network of Migrant Women and Radical Girlsss. Natasha volunteers in several local associations that promote the inclusion of economic migrants and asylum seeker migrants within Italian society. She is also the founder of Feminism Pakistan: a Facebook community that promotes feminist discussion in Pakistan.
Alyssa Ahrabare
Alyssa is a 25-year-old French feminist from Moroccan and Algerian origins. She has a Masters in International Law with a specialization in human rights and fundamental liberties and she is an international consultant on women and human rights. Alyssa is a spokeswoman for the French organization Osez le Féminisme! (trans. “Dare to be Feminist!”) Alyssa is the Project Officer for the European Network of Migrant Women and a co-convenor of its young women’s movement Radical Girlsss. She is also a member of the Women in Politics group of the European Women’s Lobby, as well as the founder of a theatre company which uses art and pedagogy to promote equality between women and men.
Laying the Groundwork: Feminist Principles
What does it mean to you to be a feminist? How do you define "feminism"?
Adriana: I think for me to be a feminist means to strive for the collective liberation of all women. It means to start from the personal, and then to try and find the balance between theory and practice. It’s like pieces on a chessboard: it doesn't make sense to think of only one piece winning the game. We all must collaborate in order to be strategic in the struggle. Being a feminist means aligning oneself with sisters in the fight towards the collective liberation of women.
Alyssa: I also think that being a feminist involves sisterhood: this kind of deep and invaluable love that specifically exist between women who understand that we are in this together. It means realizing that the war against women exists and it is global. It’s also about understanding that one of the best weapons of patriarchy is to divide us and prevent us from considering ourselves as a group, a class. Culturally, girls and women are often put in competition. We have countless representations of rivalry between women. It’s really common to hear that we are mean to one another and that it’s so much nicer to hang out with men. That’s an intentional lie. Women can love and support each other because we are part of a class that shares a history, a memory, a combat, and a common goal. If we unite, if we manage to share a common consciousness of what it is to be a woman, we are a political and cultural force to be reckoned with. For me, that’s the very essence of the feminist fight.
Natasha: I honestly had very similar thoughts. It's a long journey, feminism, and I can't limit it to one definition, because for me it began on an individual level, and then it grew to include the way I think about my family, to even further beyond that. But essentially it comes from within, it's the awareness of your womanhood. As a feminist you try to feel, analyze, and contextualize your own oppression, asking questions like “Where does it come from?” The more you question this, the deeper you go and the closer you come to what Adriana mentioned: the realization that you want to liberate all women, not just on a singular, individual level. So, for me, being a feminist is just being a woman, honestly, it’s like when Maya Angelou said that it would be stupid not to be on my own side. So, being a feminist is being a woman but also understanding the core of womanhood: knowing that it’s not a feeling, but a lived reality that we have to keep on living in from the time we are born to the time we die.
Yagmur: I think, in essence, that feminism is the ideology and movement that strives for the liberation of women and girls from the system of male dominance, which is patriarchy. I think that in practice what this means is realizing how much men hate women, you know. This idea comes from Germaine Greer who says that “women have very little idea of how much men hate them”, which is also terrible because she says “them” and not “us”, making the statement vague instead of specific. I always make this mistake as well, but I think this shows how unpopular it is to be on your own side. How can we realize our own subjugation when people constantly tell me that's not true? Well, I have a lot of empirical evidence to corroborate my claim, so it's about having the courage to realize the hatred that men have for us.
What are the differences between Liberal and Radical feminism?
Adriana: If I'm being really honest, perhaps it is kind of harsh but for me, it's the truth: I don't think you can put “liberal” and “feminism” in the same sentence. So-called “Liberal feminism” has made us believe that it's a legitimate feminist position and that we have the choice to stand on either side. But if we really want to strive for a global feminist movement and perspective, I think we really got to challenge the idea that a Capitalist mode of functioning can be called feminism. It just puts a price tag on our movement. The central difference, I would say, is that Liberal feminism is more than an ideology or modus operandi, it is a catch-all inclusivity movement that prevents women from naming ourselves as a class of people.
Alyssa: I agree, and I think it’s also important to state that historically, Liberal feminism stems from political Liberalism and its economic manifestation: Capitalism. The notion of individual freedom is key to understanding this.
“For Liberal feminists, the Capitalist society can be reformed and bettered. The system itself can remain untouched and as a result, the Liberal feminist approach serves perfectly to protect the structures of inequality. ”
Adriana: Exactly. Radical feminism is really the basis, the root, the extremely uncomfortable and painful reality, but it's a fundamental analysis of the origin of our oppression. It goes beyond the reality of male violence and asks the question of why male violence exists in the first place. Getting to the root of the problem of patriarchy and understanding its various ramifications is what differentiates Radical feminism from the Capitalist movement that is Liberal feminism.
Natasha: As young women in the patriarchal system, we are never made to love the idea of feminism or of self-love. So, our first expression of self-love manifests as Liberal feminism, it doesn't come from within, it comes from this superficial, fake surrounding: it's an illusion. Young girls are being seduced with cute t-shirts, glitter, queer theory, and rainbows. Liberal feminism is the extreme manifestation of patriarchy, I one hundred percent agree with Adriana. Liberal feminism is an oxymoron. Within the patriarchal system, where choices are made for us already, Liberal feminism is the toxic choice for women and girls all around the world.
Alyssa: Totally. For Liberal feminists, the Capitalist society can be reformed and bettered. The system itself can remain untouched and as a result, the Liberal feminist approach serves perfectly to protect the structures of inequality.
Natasha: I also think that the issue of veiling is a perfect metaphor for Liberal feminism: just as you can’t be Liberal and a feminist, you also cannot cover your face and your identity and engage in a deeply entrenched misogynistic culture while proclaiming that it is a feminist choice. These masks, whether they be veils or makeup, are fake costumes that cover up misogyny.
“It’s such a huge request to ask women to realize that men hate us.”
Adriana: I sometimes feel bad for the women who really believe that they are being feminist, because, ultimately, it's not really their fault. At the individual level, I can't help but feel sad for so many young women who are brought into this. I don't know if that makes sense.
Natasha: I totally feel the same because today, within Asian communities, there are women who have an extreme love for their tradition and their culture, which underneath are toxic women-hating practices. It's extremely painful to see how they romanticize these traditions. The conversation is increasingly taking men out of the equation and it’s becoming about women versus women. This has been a very difficult shift to witness.
Bec: This is the great patriarchal lie that women have come to believe: Liberal feminism is the most rewarding and effective form of feminism. By reframing what is really anti-feminism as feminism, we end up in that situation that Natasha describes where women are pitted against women. It’s very effective, and it's working.
Yagmur: It is taxidermy. It is men hunting down feminism, scraping out the inside, keeping the skin, and filling it up with basic patriarchal principles. They label it “feminism” and hang it on a wall as a trophy. This is exactly what's going on. Feminism has been reduced to “being”, when it really should be about “doing”. We’re losing the idea of “deeds not words”. Feminism is not an identity. I even struggle to find “feminism” being used as a standalone word, I struggle finding “woman” on its own. It’s always “something”-woman, “something”-feminist. The more you put adjectives in front, the more it becomes about the adjective and less about the word that it's supposed to qualify.
It’s such a huge request to ask women to realize that men hate us. Whether we like it or not, we are in bed with the enemy. That’s quite unique because usually with other subjugated groups, such as racially discriminated communities, there exist geographically segregated spaces. The oppressor and the oppressed typically don’t mix in physical spaces. But to open your eyes and realize that your father hates you because he watches pornography, your boyfriend hates you because he fetishizes other women, is just such a massive realization to make.
Alyssa: This also relates to how our oppression started with the idea of private property. The necessity for men to control their descendants in order to keep property in the blood line was at the basis of heteronormativity, monogamy and imprisonment of women in the domestic sphere. Women become a vehicle by which private property and the male lineage is maintained.
Yagmur: It reminds me of the story “The Princess and the Pea”: the pea is on the bottom, layered beneath mattresses, the princess lays on top, and if she feels the pea, she is the genuine princess. Feminism is like that: can you feel it under all the layers of glamour and propaganda? Are you willing to realize what's going on? One of the ingenious ways in which the patriarchal ideology is achieved is to frame the discourse as a disagreement between women. In actuality, there is a conflict between men and women, but this historical power dynamic is made invisible when women are pitted against each other.
Bec: The one thing that I've been thinking about a lot is how really impossible women's liberation is. I don't mean to say that to sound cynical, or to say it's not worth fighting for. But to really understand the extent to which women are embedded in patriarchy is to understand that, you know, we are surrounded by men. This distinction you mentioned between other kinds of groups, that are in geographically different locations, are more likely to develop a sense of togetherness because they're physically in a different place to their oppressor. Women are everywhere. We're everywhere in every single facet of society in every class in every race and so, how to generate that sense of class consciousness between women, I think, is, you know, maybe to say impossible is a little bit hyperbolic but I think it's, it's extremely difficult.
Adriana: Can I just say, this made me think of a quote by Andrea Dworkin, who said that “The tragedy is that women so committed to survival cannot recognize that they are committing suicide.” We’re so committed to change and political activism, but there is always a chance that behind the next corner there is a man who will cut our throats with a knife just because he can. It can happen at any moment. So, like, the fact that we're putting ourselves out there and showing up, it can ultimately lead towards our demise as well.
Bec: This, to me, is feminism: taking risks, you know, confronting the violence in the world, and confronting it even though you know there will be repercussions as bad as rape or death. To me is what the political feminist movement is about. And I think that is a huge distinction: the actual feminist struggle involves dangerous territory, it is uncomfortable, it can lead to backlash, but we do it anyway.
What are some examples of Liberal Feminism in your own lives?
Yagmur: In my experience, the superficial notion of “consent” is having disastrous consequences. I have friends who are complying to things they don't want, simply because they say “I consent”. I have friends who are being tied up and being hit by their boyfriends, thinking that this is what sex entails. I had a friend who was confronted by a man who said he had never slapped a woman, and her immediate reaction was to assume that he had no sexual experience. Some of my male friends are really confused that women are defending violent sexual practices and prostitution so wholeheartedly. Everything is flipped. It’s the classic tale of The Beauty And The Beast: an arranged marriage takes place, where they tell the woman that if she grins and bears it, and if she is kind enough, she will start to see him as a handsome man. I feel that it describes perfectly what's going on in the context of sexual violence: if we just grin and bear it, it's easier than actually challenging it.
Bec: What do you make of the fact that BDSM and rope tying is becoming really fashionable? In my context, it's mostly women who are requesting this and wanting to do this and arguing that it's empowering. How do you make sense of that?
Yagmur: I've recently come across this term which has been recently circulating in French feminist circles: “traumatic genital excitement”. It essentially involves looking back to the thing that provided you pleasure, even though it might have been a traumatic experience. It’s about being addicted to your own trauma, through sexual violence, because it might stimulate you. It's as if pain were pleasure. But the pleasure actually comes from ending the pain. Pain is still pain. So again, we have this state of reversal where things are things they're not: men are women, pain is pleasure, violence is kindness.
Natasha: It’s also important to mention that from a global perspective, I have noticed that women are only getting the Liberal feminist messaging and are finding it very confusing. It is heartbreaking to see that these young women are being bombarded with these distorted notions of pleasing the man next to them. It hurts the core of my existence.
“There is a wave of depoliticization happening regarding migrant women, who are being made to believe that they can opt out of their oppression.”
Alyssa: I think that the concept of “individual liberty” is one of those harmful messages which lies at the core of the Liberal feminist message. Take prostitution, for instance: from the Liberal feminist perspective, prostitution can be a free, empowering choice. But this is so clearly intellectual fiction! From a global perspective, women have less economic opportunities, we are poorer, we have been taught to understand our bodies as value-generating vessels, we are often abused and raped at a very young age, resulting in psycho traumas that make us more vulnerable to traffickers, the list goes on... If prostitution were a free choice, why are women and girls disproportionately represented, especially those of us with migrant backgrounds? How can it be a free choice when the median age of entering prostitution is 13? Liberal feminism cannot meaningfully contend with structural inequalities as long as individual freedom is heralded as the primary marker of liberation. I would go so far as to saying that Liberal feminism is entirely complicit in the system that oppresses us.
Natasha: I found out quickly that the only way to be accepted in Liberal feminist circles is to say “yes, sorry, yes ma'am, yes sir” like a puppet. Obviously, in a patriarchal society and male-dominated culture, women are never going to be heard. But now, even in women-only spaces and women’s groups, there is a complete lack of dialogue. There is an entire set of questions and arguments that you cannot touch. This new normal turns those women who ask questions into the enemy, the monster. This is what I experienced. I never understood why I was being called names and vilified. These women are being made to see me as their enemy just because I am asking questions. I know that for me it has been crucial to ask questions. If I hadn’t been able to ask questions or discuss my doubts, I wouldn’t be sitting here today thinking, questioning, and trying to save other women’s lives.
Even in the context of Indian subcontinent, it is very much the same. Older women are being eaten up by these Western Capitalist theories of equating male feelings about identity to women being killed and raped. This message is being conveyed so effectively, that even women who have actual grassroots knowledge of feminism and the clerical society, still cannot understand the consequences of having any dialogue in feminist spaces.
Adriana: I definitely agree with Yagmur. I'm noticing really worrying things about sex. It has affected me personally. Before I really understood the basic notions of feminism, I didn't consider myself a feminist because I didn't agree with the Liberal currents. So I thought, okay, I'm not a feminist because I don't believe in this message. I didn't realize that there were other streams of feminist thought.
I've also noticed a lot of worrying trends while being an activist in the migration sector for the last six years. There is a wave of depoliticization happening regarding migrant women, who are being made to believe that they can opt out of their oppression. It really makes me angry to see so many women in refugee centers, all the while Liberal feminists are talking about identity and self-empowerment. But what are they doing about the last girl? The last woman? There are still migrants being tortured in detention centers, little girls being raped in Libya, sex dolls coming from China with the bodies of five-year-old girls. We are making society stupid. I really think that we're turning young people into thoughtless, unquestioning people who don't have any capacity for critical thinking and just gobble down anything that is set in front of them.
Yagmur: When you were talking about refugee camps, it made me think about a good way to have a feminist barometer, by asking: how does this message help stop female genital mutilation? How does this help stop rape? In other words: how does wearing a choker and nipple tassels on Instagram concretely tackle global femicide?
Adriana: Exactly. The inequalities that we have been trying to fight for decades, like race and class inequalities, are actually being exacerbated by Liberal feminism. They forget that their “feminism” has become an elite discourse for people who can read Judith Butler and other postmodern theorists. Meanwhile, as they label us “white feminists”, the majority of women who cannot speak up for themselves are being left on the sidelines. They are turning women away who are not in the position to read or understand postmodern theory, and we’re letting the elite lecture us about colonizing the discourse.
Yagmur: But it’s also not good for themselves. It reminds me of Andrea Dworkin saying that “Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy on behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like.” Liberal feminists are trapped in their immediate bubbles of agreement and forgetting to think about women as a global class. This is why I'm also quite troubled by the objectivization of “white feminism”, the idea that white women and rich women are horrible, I really don't believe that. I live in a quite wealthy neighborhood, and I can guarantee you that there is a systemic level of teaching women to be submissive in these circles. These women might think that they are free, because they have money, but it's not even their own money - it's their fathers, it's their husbands. Thinking that our affiliation to male categories of society will save us is simply not true.
Adriana: Yeah, and the fact that all the revolutionary movements are losing their energy. Because everything that is “anti-systemic” today is considered fashionable. But actually, people don't realize that they’re fighting for the status quo to be maintained. And there's nothing revolutionary in adhering to norms that only serve to exacerbate our oppression. So, I think, there is a huge impact on all social movements. They are becoming catch-all terms for whatever the newest fashionable rhetoric is, rather than focusing on building coalitions across differences. Take, for example, the mass graveyards of black migrants in the Mediterranean Sea. Where is the outrage?
What would an ideal feminist world look like to you?
Natasha: My immediate thought was a world with no men. But beyond that, I envision a society in which female bodies are not controlled. But it is difficult to realize, because one of the main functions of patriarchal power convinces us that actually, we want to be controlled. I often imagine what it would be like without being socialized through generations of patriarchal history, without all the norms and values of male culture. Even thinking about “female domination” seems pretty patriarchal in its formulation.
Bec: I mean, that is a good point because really it's an impossible question. How do you envision a feminist world from the point of view of being so embedded in patriarchy? It’s like trying to imagine how birds view the world in ultraviolet color.
Yagmur: I think a feminist world would mean living out our full potentials, to do anything we would like to without that thing that is keeping us back (that thing obviously being male violence). The important question here being: What's next, after feminism? What would I be doing if I weren't doing feminism? Finding your passion is incredibly important as a way of defining yourself outside of the fight against male violence. Who are you without men?
Bec: Exactly, when feminism becomes too much of an identity, I suppose you fall into a situation of defining yourself against the world, and so you're always in opposition. I think it’s so important to imagine the world that you are for, the world in which you can become someone who is defined by yourself, rather than by outside forces.
“In an ideal feminist world, no woman would be sick. We wouldn’t have medicalized and sick girls.”
Adriana: For me it's a very difficult question, because there's literally no point of reference for a feminist world. It's not like we knew a time in which women were free. But I think a feminist world would be a world in which we don't see girls under 18 with their ears pierced. I know this might seem a little bit specific, but I'm from a Latin culture in which newborn girls are immediately categorized in opposition to boys by getting their ears pierced. It is the first mark of the expectations of femininity and submissiveness. You can't even talk, you can't even say what your favorite color is, but you are already socialized as the “other”.
Alyssa: I agree with Adriana, to me, an ideal feminist world is one where choices are not conditioned by one’s sex. So, it is a world in which discrimination does not start as soon as the ultrasound shows the baby’s sex. Boys and girls would play together, girls wouldn’t feel less intelligent, sexual violence would be faced head-on, everyone would be taught that mutual desire should be at the basis of any human interaction and girls wouldn’t have “eating disorders” because there would be no unachievable ideas of beauty.
Adriana: I have also been thinking a lot about “eating disorders”. In an ideal feminist world, no woman would be sick. There wouldn't even be this measure of “eating too much” or “eating too little”, because this is not something that we would impose on one another. We wouldn’t have medicalized and sick girls.
Bec: I think that's such a good point, women would not be sick. The distinction between the self and the body would no longer be there, because the body would be liberated, and by the body being liberated, women become liberated. And so, in a feminist world there would be more of an identification with the body. Eating disorders, prostitution, rape, violence, compulsory femininity - all of this involves disassociation from your body. You have to remove yourself from your femaleness. Bridging that gap between the self and the body would completely change the way women position themselves and see themselves in the world.
Alyssa: Precisely, I think that a feminist world would mean that women are no longer trapped by high heels and tight clothes that prevent us from running, or long nails that prevent us from grabbing. It is also a world where men would be able to wear tight clothes and make up, where boys would be able to play with dolls and wear pink. Basically, we would be able to meaningfully control our own bodies.
Adriana: Exactly, everything is imposed on our bodies because it's the material site of violence in control and coercion is manifested. I just want to feel whole. In my ideal world women would be whole. We are not half of an orange - we're the entire fruit.
Young, Migrant, Female: Intersections
How has your migrant background influenced the way you think about feminism?
Yagmur: So, I'm Turkish and I've grown up mainly in France. One of the best ways I can describe the migration experience is like being in the back of a car. The car is going really fast, so you're moving, migrating, and you're seeing everything that's going on around you and it's beautiful. But you're stuck in the car. And that's the feeling that I have. I also think that this idea of cultural relativism is doing so much damage, because we must recognize that there are incremental improvements between countries and the way they treat women. I have to be honest and say that I would never want to live in Iraq or Iran as a woman. At the same time as a migrant woman you can't access “the better life” as easily as your fathers or brothers. There are two different articulations of patriarchy migrant women have to live with: the traditional family unit and the Liberal state of patriarchy.
A turning point for me was realizing that racism would stop the moment I step back into Turkey, but I am a woman wherever I go. This was the biggest realization for me in understanding the female condition.
Alyssa: It’s interesting because even though I experienced sexism since childhood, I only noticed later on that the racism I encounter is inherently tied to me being a woman. I was born in France to Moroccan and Algerian parents, and I often experience sexual harassment on the basis that I am deemed “exotic”. But this racism does not only react to my migrant background, it specifically aims at the fact that I am a woman with a migrant background. People assume that I am Muslim and so I constantly get asked why I don’t wear a veil, and every time I appear on television or the press I am hounded with racist and sexist comments. This gave me a strong understanding of intersectionality, you know, in the way that different characteristics result in a specific kind of discrimination which cannot be separated. I also think it is important to integrate the concept of universalism, which is the notion that there are fundamental rights common to every human being, regardless of religious or cultural context. I understand universalism and intersectionality as complementary: the universal declaration of human rights must consider the intersections of oppression, while intersectionality must also avoid cultural relativism. This balance is incredibly important. My migrant background has taught me that it is impossible to be a feminist without taking a stance against Colonialism and Capitalism.
“A turning point for me was realizing that racism would stop the moment I step back into Turkey, but I am a woman wherever I go. This was the biggest realization for me in understanding the female condition.”
Adriana: I also think that my migration background has affected me, because I don’t like saying that I'm Brazilian, for example. When I say that I'm Brazilian I'm automatically sexualized, and I believe that's one of the reasons why I've for so many years I've rejected my body. Just the simple fact of saying that I am Brazilian is very difficult for me, because I think it opens a door in men's mind that I'm sexually available and sexually more fun. This has placed me in competition with other women and brought so many problems that I never asked for.
I was born in Luxembourg to Portuguese and Brazilian parents, but I never really felt at home there. Even when I go back to Brazil, I'm considered the “gringa”, you know, my skin tone is light even though my family is darker. My migration background has also influenced the way I talk about class and racism, and how I position myself in relation to women that are in far worse situations than I am. I don't know what it's like to be discriminated against for the color of my skin, but I've been sexually assaulted and have witnessed firsthand what happens to women in Brazil and Portugal. There is a certain level of sadness involved in not “belonging” to a specific country, but my background has also provided me with a unique lens through which global forms of misogyny and the common experience of women has become apparent.
Natasha: I’m trying not to cry because I can relate to exactly what you’re saying. I was once asked about what it means to be a migrant woman, and before that I never thought of myself as belonging to this category. Now, after having lived in Italy for 11 years and moving to various other places within Europe, I have lost the concept of “migrant feminist”. I no longer see women as being oppressed because of their nationalities, instead I have realized that it's because of our female bodies. Female bodies are being controlled universally, either in the name of Islam in Pakistan or in other Muslim countries, or by the name of Liberal feminism in Western Capitalist countries. This is what the migration experience has gifted me: the ability to connect on an emotional level with women everywhere.
Also, the cornerstone of this consciousness is realizing that women’s suffering is often positioned simply as “humanistic” suffering. I have noticed that the women’s sector in Europe and Pakistan has very little feminist analysis. The female struggle has become a fight to see women as equal to men – positioning men as the aspiration of what it means to be human. In other words: the more male-like presence you have, the more admiration and respect you will receive. Instead, the Radical feminist analysis allows us to understand our subjugation based on sex, which is a unique kind of domination that cannot be made sense of on the same plain as other forms of violence.
Adriana: From my perspective, what can often happen is that women are positioned against other women from the beginning of the migration journey. There is of course a need to be able to articulate the specifics of Latina, or black, or working-class women – but what is actually happening, in my experience, is that women are being increasingly subdivided into “othering” categories that prevent the overlap of our common experience.
Bec: Everything that you're saying echoes this phrase by Juliet Mitchell from her 1971 book Woman’s Estate, where she talks about “the commonality underlying the diversity”. It seems that difference and diversity is being accounted for, but the commonality isn't, and so we end up in this situation of division and unbreachable categories.
“Female bodies are being controlled universally, either in the name of Islam in Pakistan or in other Muslim countries, or by the name of Liberal feminism in Western Capitalist countries.”
Yagmur: When we prioritize these different categories in trying to understand what it means to be a woman, it becomes overly individualized. How many women can you find that all share the same sub-categories of experience? The scope becomes reduced and it becomes impossible to name the common experience of women. Misogyny has one variable, and that is sex. Of course, as a woman you will have multiple identities and factors at play that determine the way you will be seen and treated in society, I’m not denying that. But when you are oppressed as a woman, across all nationalities, ethnicities, and cultures – it is the female sex which matters. And again, I cannot insist enough that whatever patriarchy gives, patriarchy takes. So, if you're advantaged because you have access to money, all that money will go towards your looks. It has become a race to the bottom. Women say they are privileged just because they can eat and are not subjected to daily violence. What should be basic human rights are now privileges that women must apologize for.
In your own context, what is the most difficult challenge about being a young feminist today?
Natasha: I'm still situated in a traditional family setup. So, my first difficulty is within my own room. I have been conditioned by traditions that I had no part in shaping. Within my family there are so many women that I would like to help, but I can’t. There is a constant struggle of wanting to fight for the liberation of all women, yet within my own family I can do very little. The second most difficult thing is the constant brainwashing through mainstream media of being positive, upbeat and happy. I question myself continuously about whether I am on the right path, because the acceptable face of feminism is covered in glitter, positivity and empowerment. My reality is very different – it is dark, painful and uncomfortable. This reality is not being named, and so it becomes impossible to address the problem.
Alyssa: In France, for me, the main challenge for young women is that there seems to be a general acceptance that the feminist fight ended some time ago. Most people do not acknowledge the overwhelming amount of untold, unpunished violence and injustice that still remains, for example pornography. Pornography is one of the main problems for young women because it promotes the idea that sexuality is inseparable from violence. It legitimates male violence against women and girls because it relies on an essentialist vision of the sexes: women actually enjoy being humiliated to experience sexual pleasure. Spanking, whipping, filmed rape… Pornography is teaching young girls (and boys) that women belong in a submissive role. Violence, humiliation and dehumanisation of women and girls are key to getting as many views as possible.
“The main challenge for young women is that there seems to be a general acceptance that the feminist fight ended some time ago.”
Adriana: The biggest challenge for me is this sense of doom that things are getting gradually worse. I also feel a lot of pressure and responsibility to act out of urgency, but there is also a general sense for young women that we cannot bring anything new to the table because we’re too busy trying to find a job or getting university degrees. I'm actually scared for the future, especially considering all this talk about transhumanism, artificial intelligence and the increasing pornification of society. I’m really worried about the younger generations, my heart actually is bleeding for them. The main difficulty I experience is this constant feeling of not doing enough.
Yagmur: One of the main difficulties in my view is the fact that, as young women, we will often actively campaign against ourselves. And so, when we try to engage in feminist dialogue, we have to be prepared not only for men, but for many women being against us. You feel like you are in another era. We are forced into being clandestine. Meanwhile we know that there is a very powerful, unashamed pimp lobby which is rebranding women’s subordination as empowerment, a fact that is often met with disbelief by other women.
What message needs to be conveyed to other young migrant women, that they are not currently hearing? Is there a message you wish you would have heard as a young migrant girl, coming from older feminists?
Adriana: I would tell young migrant women to not let their oppression be morally and culturally normalized and sexualized. It’s a hard question for me. As a young girl I would have loved to be introduced to more secondwave feminist texts, but I would have also needed someone to explain how this theory relates to my own reality.
Alyssa: I want to relay to girls that they can challenge sexist representations of women. I would advise them not to reproduce the violence they see, and to not let themselves be dehumanized by anyone. That they learn to listen to themselves, their desires and their limits. That they open themselves to feminism and then support other girls to do the same. On the other hand, something which I would have wished to hear from older feminists is more teaching about the harms and dangers of online violence, whether that be on social media or pornography websites. This violence is not less worrisome just because it seems to be virtual, on the contrary, it has lethal consequences and it is too often wrongly brushed aside.
Yagmur: I would want other young migrant women to understand that their culture will not protect them. Something I wish I would have been told is that the body never lies. If your body says no, it means you are saying no. And you are allowed to verbalize that. But in general, I have been very blessed in the feminist relationships I have cultivated, and I always hear the words of Fiona Broadfoot: “Radical Feminism saved my life”, which is my experience also. I have benefited a lot from older feminists being upfront and not being afraid to speak truth to power. This makes me really worried because I feel that younger women are not willing to discuss or debate things, as everything must increasingly be delivered with velvet boxing gloves. We are losing the ability to name the female experience.
Adriana: This reminds me of experiencing younger women writing each other off if one of them is confident and outspoken about a certain topic. It’s like being clear and firm is a taboo, instead women must be vague and apologetic to be taken seriously. I think that we need to learn how to communicate better with younger generations.
Bec: It's one of the greatest tools of patriarchy: making women afraid of each other's true speech and resent each other for that, resent each other for what we could be, but what we're not.
Natasha: Personally I would like to see my fellow girls, feminist or not, to have enough self-confidence from a very young age so they do not require male validation. I would have loved to know that, and to be encouraged to be vocal about things I disagree with. Being vocal about your anger, being unafraid to talk about trauma. I never had that feminist perspective because it was always portrayed as ugly and dark. I would like for young girls around the world to encounter clearer and more engaging feminist messages.
Intergenerational Approaches:
Thinking Through the Past, Towards the Future
What is something that could improve intergenerational cooperation?
Alyssa: Recently I participated in a feminist video contest on the theme of the Women’s Liberation Movement. We looked at feminist archives with interviews, pictures from protests, songs, and political posters. This was incredibly inspiring, and it can enable young feminists to realize that we are a part of something bigger than just our present condition. It has the potential of creating sisterhood between generations. I think that we should also create more spaces where we can meet, debate and learn from one another. I am always so moved by the emotion of older feminists when we meet in conferences, when they come to me to say that I am part of the new generation, as if they were passing me a torch. This realization is so important: we are not alone, we do not need to reinvent the wheel because we have inherited the thoughts, the words, the analysis, the defeats and the victories of our older sisters.
“The wolf, who is disguised as a woman, eats the grandmother first. He doesn’t just eat the little girl straight away. He makes sure that the old woman, the wise woman, is attacked first, to make sure that there will be no retaliation against him.”
Natasha: The first thing that comes to mind is being able to dialogue better in between generations. When we talk about intergenerational problems, I feel like it comes from poor communication with each other. We are all at different stages of womanhood and a lot of what differentiates generations tends to get lost in translation. Empathic communication is needed to bring both ends to a constructive solution.
Adriana: I agree with Natasha that a lot of empathy is needed in both directions. A lot of people say that conflict within the feminist movement is a generational issue – but it’s not - it's an ideological issue. I don’t agree with some younger feminists when they define themselves in opposition to older feminists. Where would we be without the persecuted women who dared to resist? The blame is being put on older women, which misrepresents the structural forces of male culture. But at the same time, on a practical level, I wish that older women wouldn’t expect so much of younger women. I used to flip burgers to be able to survive and militate in feminist organizations. I realize that there is virtually no money to pay young women to do feminist activism, but please don’t expect me to be energetic because one day I will have a breakdown. It is no coincidence that most feminists are tired as hell, and many have mental health issues.
Bec: Yeah, there seems to be this dual necessity for empathy. On the one hand, older women, expecting a lot from the younger generation, but on the other hand young women today define themselves in opposition to older women and believe that they are going to correct the failures of history, which creates this artificial divide between generations. That really serves patriarchal methods. Women have rebelled and resisted since the beginning, and the idea that there were no women, or that only certain women are selectively recovered to fit a contemporary narrative, is very harmful.
Adriana: But this is something that is done on purpose. Gendered marketing instils this message into young women who are scared to grow up, scared to accept the effects of time on their bodies. They look at older women and think “I don't want to be like this. I don't want to be old.” This also relates to trans activism, in the way that we are prevented from naming our mothers. They want to cut any ties that we have with previous generations so there's no continuum. I think we should be giving intergenerational dialogue a lot more thought because our livelihood depends on it.
Bec: As you say it's intentional in the way that each new generation of women must relearn lessons from the movement. There's no continuation of learning, and so every time the movement must re-energize and start from scratch, rather than building from previous efforts. This is very intentional.
Yagmur: It’s interesting what you say about the fear of getting old. I often use the analogy of Little Red Riding Hood to explain what is going on: the wolf, who is disguised as a woman, eats the grandmother first. He doesn’t just eat the little girl straight away. He makes sure that the old woman, the wise woman, is attacked first, to make sure that there will be no retaliation against him. It’s really dangerous for men if we get close to that knowledge and wisdom which older women have cultivated.
What is a practical step that other women can take to better incorporate the experience of young migrant women in their feminist organizing?
Adriana: We have to remember that, even though we are all women, we have different cultural codes. I think it's easy for us as radical feminists to talk about sex and pornography, but many girls feel deeply ashamed and are unwilling to address these topics. So we must become creative with our language. Many radical feminists are online, but there are even more women around the world who do not have an internet connection or a phone. These basic things sometimes need reminding of. We have to put into practice what we're learning in the books.
Alyssa: It is also important not to be “maternalistic” and for white woman to resist the attitude of knowing what’s best. A migrant woman arriving from the “economic south” to a “developed country” will not necessarily be able to break free from her chains. To me, it is also key not to allow cultural relativism in the name of so-called tolerance. It is crucial to facilitate spaces for women of colour to be able to freely talk about the specific violence we face. When organisations want to include migrant women in their work, everyone involved should address their own behaviour in relation to the issue of racism. I am reminded of a phrase by Pat Parker, when she says that “the first thing you must do is forget I am Black. The second is never forget I am black.” What she means is that, while treating every sister the same way, we must never forget the specific, intertwined violence that women face when oppressions intersect.
Natasha: In my experience we must scratch the surface, so that we can move closer to understand the layers in between. Especially within the migrant context, what we need to do is to encourage women to scratch the surface of their lives to come closer to who they are, outside of the norms and traditions that have defined them. Asking two or three general questions about their personal lives will help uncover their individual potential.
Yagmur: Women are not pieces of furniture as Anna Zobnina says, we are not for the taking, to be rearranged. I remember a quote by Malcolm X saying “don't condemn if you see a person has a dirty glass of water, just show them the clean glass of water that you have.” I think this is a useful attitude towards feminism that goes beyond the categorical subdivisions. You know, it's not in my interest that you join the movement, it’s in your interest.
What are your hopes and plans for the future of the feminist movement?
Yagmur: I always visualize a feminist tribunal, where we will finally have recognition of the male violence that was done to us, recognition of our status as victims, retribution for the damage inflicted on us and reparations. That keeps me going.
Adriana: What you just said blew my mind, we need to be asking for reparations. There is a genocide of women, a femicide, and there always will be until we collectively refuse it. It's time to ask for reparations. On a practical level I think women in the feminist movement need to be communicating better with each other. We’re scared to communicate and say how we feel. We’re not honest with each other, when we really owe it to ourselves and each other to be honest. Our socialization gets in the way of our communication, and I think one of the biggest challenges is moving from the “saying” to the “doing”.
Alyssa: I hope for more unity and collaboration between women, activists, artists, scientists, organisations, politicians, and funders. We all have something to contribute to the movement and a role to play in it. My focus is on changing the narrative through arts and communications, putting forward new stories, new views in order to transform attitudes. We need analysts and scientists collecting more data for activists. We need feminist women represented in the political system to implement legislative progress. We need women in high places and women remaining on the grassroots level to be able to speak up and protest. My hope is for every woman, every girl, to be able to think for herself and support her sisters. I want to see an international feminist movement that has a global perspective, united by sisterhood and a shared analysis.
“I always visualize a feminist tribunal, where we will finally have recognition of the male violence that was done to us, recognition of our status as victims, retribution for the damage inflicted on us and reparations.”
Adriana: I also think the simplification, in terms of accessibility, of feminist content needs to be taken seriously. The continuum of our analysis is slowly dying, and we need to unclog the sink so that women can once more drink the riches of feminism.
Natasha: I hope that we are able to grant our future girls and women a better sense of self, that we can see ourselves as a complete whole. I am planning to encourage more open debate about Radical feminism in Pakistan over the next few years, until we can form an actual group. I would like to see, not just women, but feminist women represented in politics.
Yagmur: What about you?
Bec: I would wish for women to become friends with women in the past, even if they are long dead. I wish for more consciousness of the continuation of the struggle, placing ourselves on a temporal continuum from the first time that a woman raised her fist.
Adriana: All the hopes that we have, like collective remembering, communication, reaching our potential, everything that we want for the future we’re beginning the process in this conversation. I feel really blessed to be able to have this conversation with other women. I'm a bit emotional because this is a beautiful moment. I wish all girls would have the privilege of having conversations like this.
Bec: I concur and I think it's not often that we have these intentional conversations about these topics. For me, this is more than just an interview, it's also about understanding my own thoughts better in relation to yours. I miss you and I wish we could do this together in person and we need to congregate soon.
Natasha: I want to give you all a huge hug!
Bec: Natasha gives the best hugs.
Natasha: It’s true.
All: Bye sisters! Thank you so much! Love you!
I would like to thank Adriana, Alyssa, Natasha and Yagmur for their time, dedication and thoughtful considerations in engaging with me for this interview. I would also like to thank Elizabeth Miller for asking me to contribute to Spinning and Weaving: Contemporary Radical Feminist Theory and for inspiring the existence of this piece.